BenP (11:23)
Hi everyone and welcome to the Tech World Human Skills Podcast. Thanks so much for listening. You know what, was chatting to some listeners last night at an event and you know what I love? Everyone had different favourite episodes and I love that and I love to hear how each episode resonates differently and speaks to people in unique ways. And today we have another amazing topic and guest. We are talking...
about imposter syndrome, something that affects loads of people. Now, our guest today is the head of growth at Ubertas Consulting, part of Devo team. But not only that, she recently featured on the Mashable list, the top seven future tech power women of 2024. And yet, we're talking about imposter syndrome. So, please welcome to the show.
Frances Nichols. Frances, it is lovely to have you with us.
Frances Nichols (12:25)
It's so nice to be here, thank you Ben.
BenP (12:27)
Now, no, it is lovely to have you. And I wonder for all of our listeners that probably haven't come across you before, could you introduce yourself?
Frances Nichols (12:36)
Yes, so my name's Frances, as Ben said, I'm the head of growth for Uberas Consulting, now part of DevO team. We are the Amazon Web Services consulting business in the UK for DevO team. And we are a premier tier partner with AWS, working exclusively with them and their customers to support migrations, management, and then the optimization of their cloud environments.
BenP (13:02)
Brilliant.
Frances Nichols (13:04)
little bit about my career perhaps just I have been in tech my whole
BenP (13:06)
Yeah.
Frances Nichols (13:09)
I've had various roles. I started as a business analyst, worked up through change consultancy, business consultancy, program management, large program projects for Parliament, portfolio management. So a lot of peripheral roles, not technical, but supporting the delivery of organizational change powered by tech, essentially.
BenP (13:35)
Yeah, all the stuff that's helping tech actually have impact, because tech on its own does nothing, does it? It's all of these other, and that's what this podcast is all about. All of those things you need other than just your hardcore technical skills that help you succeed and thrive in thriving tech. So we're gonna be talking about imposter syndrome today. I wonder if we could start by sort of framing that conversation. From your perspective, what do you understand imposter syndrome to be?
Frances Nichols (13:48)
Exactly.
So.
I think it's most basic, it's the kind of inability to internalise your success or qualification and feeling as though you either don't deserve to be in the position or situation you find yourself in and that your colleagues or the people you're interacting with might be perceiving or assessing you and might ultimately call you out on the fact that you are not credible or don't deserve to be there.
and that you're not qualified to have a position at whatever table you're sat at.
BenP (14:41)
And it seems to be quite a common thing. Is it something that you've experienced? Well, I know you've experienced it personally, but also is it something that you've come across as quite a common thing in the industry?
Frances Nichols (14:52)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, I think, like, I talk at...
number of events around the sense of imposter syndrome, especially at kind of women's networks, things like that. think there's a statistic I heard recently about at some point in your career, 70 % of people at some point in their career would experience this feeling of imposter syndrome, which is quite staggering. And I think there will be varying extents to which people identify with it and experience it. But yeah, it is a common theme within leadership and in
indeed any other roles so yeah it comes up quite frequently so we all must be imposters really. I wonder who the real people are?
BenP (15:33)
So the perspective you're coming at this from is this is your lived experience. You have suffered or identified with imposter syndrome.
Frances Nichols (15:45)
Yeah.
BenP (15:49)
And we're not coming at this, hey, you're a psychologist with a PhD in imposter syndrome unveiling your research. What we're going to chat about is your lived experience, examples that we've had and maybe things we can do about it and that kind of stuff. So that's kind of the conversation we're going to have today. So I wonder if we could start off with, have you got any examples that people love to hear? What does it actually mean? I get the theory, but.
Frances Nichols (16:05)
Yeah.
BenP (16:18)
What does it actually mean? So could you share any examples of how imposter syndrome has affected you in your career?
Frances Nichols (16:25)
Yeah, so I mean, examples of where I've like felt it, think one sort of most telling thing just because it was articulated how I was feeling by someone else, but I was the program manager of the network transformation program in parliament. And at some point in our in the program, we were replacing all of the service distribution points. So ultimately affecting kind of Wi-Fi accessibility for democracy. So in that period, I was describing to a friend of mine who
works in media what I was doing and describing a bit about my job and she just said exactly how I was feeling, like, babe, who do you think you are? And I was like, know.
who gave me this job? What on earth am I doing here? How can I contribute to this? Who am I? Despite having years of previous experience in complex program management and delivery and a huge success in a number of other sort of organisational transformation programs. So, you know, when you look at it from your credentials and you look at yourself on paper, it's almost sometimes that you don't really recognise yourself and can't
that success to how you feel personally and the things that you've been through but ultimately continue to drive those results and deliver success but still find it an issue converting it into something that you really identify with I think.
BenP (17:54)
Yeah, and it's interesting. Thanks for sharing that example. That's brilliant. And yeah, the more I speak to people, the more, you know, I observe this. So for example,
I did an episode ages ago now, over a year ago now, think, with a chap called Jeffrey Snover. And Jeffrey Snover, for those who know, was the architect, the father of PowerShell. And we got him on the show and we were chatting to him, as a seriously successful technical leader. And he then was like, well, of course, I've got massive imposter syndrome. And I was like, what? Hold on. We need to... And if I would have thought of somebody that I didn't think would have imposter syndrome, it would be somebody that had been as successful
Frances Nichols (18:20)
Yeah.
BenP (18:36)
as that. So I found that fascinating. And if I think about it from my perspective and my lived experience, I worked in the corporate world for 20 years. And if I'm honest, I didn't really have it at all or identify with it at all. When I did was when I set up my own business. And suddenly I was now running my own business where I needed to create the product, deliver the product, sell the product, price the product.
Frances Nichols (18:38)
Mm.
Mm.
BenP (19:06)
do the entire thing. Whereas when I was at Microsoft, I had all these smart people who had created the product, priced the product, thought about the product, told me this was a good idea and now it's just my job to execute on all of these other good ideas. Now it's my job to execute on my ideas and particularly when I'm doing proposals and I write it down, even though I know it's priced well, even though I know it's good value for money, I go, well that's a lot of money like I...
Frances Nichols (19:21)
Yeah.
BenP (19:34)
really do that. Can I do that? I can't do that. And so I find I'm living with it a lot more now than I ever have in my career, which is fascinating for me.
Frances Nichols (19:42)
Yeah.
And I think that's true. And I think an element of that probably for your journey is that vulnerability of having so much of yourself out there, being solely responsible for that whole journey and product set and launch and pricing and everything like that. And I think vulnerability is a huge piece and owning your vulnerability is a huge piece of overcoming imposter syndrome and limiting how exposed you feel if you know that you're putting your full self out there and you have the strength and resiliency to embrace your vulnerability.
I think you can deal with feeling a little bit exposed because you know that you'll be able to manage that and ultimately embracing that side.
BenP (20:21)
Yeah, and that's when the good stuff comes, doesn't it? When you put yourself on the edge, you've been really vulnerable, you've tried your hardest.
then it either works or it doesn't. And if it does, that's brilliant and what an amazing feeling. And if it doesn't, that's the resilience part, isn't it? Like I've dusted yourself off and going, I tried and now I need to have another go. So enough about me. This feels like a therapy session for me, which is wonderful. And that's what I always love to record. Speaking of vulnerability and putting that out there in the public domain. thinking back to you, the important part of this conversation, what...
Frances Nichols (20:40)
Yeah, quite.
BenP (20:58)
How has it impacted your career and over your career? What sort of negative impact or positive impact has it had on your career?
Frances Nichols (21:09)
So I think unchecked, the behaviours that get driven from feeling like an imposter or the fear of being found out can be quite destructive to someone's career and their trajectory. I think I've kind of grouped these into a couple of...
sort of different categories. So one is this overworking or overcompensation. So if I have felt like, my goodness, I really didn't, I don't feel like I should be here or I'm not sure what I should be doing. I think the temptation is to overcompensate by driving more and more output, increasing your coverage, kind of investing in those tasks that add visible and immediate value to an organization.
but ultimately aren't really the ones that someone at your level should be contributing at. And I think it's easy to go into a comfort zone. It drives you into a comfort zone so that you're delivering that volume, demonstrating your value, but ultimately you're seeing yourself a disservice because you're not elevating that thinking. You're not...
kind of being creative or critical in your contribution. And ultimately you're not working at the level that you have earned and deserve. And it's really tempting, I think, to do that kind of overworking to demonstrate your value. But ultimately, if you really assess the time you're spending on things, are they really the right things that are gonna progress you, are gonna progress your organization, kind of drive that innovative culture and entrepreneurialism. So I think that's
one thing like you get dragged down into the weeds and you do that over kind of production piece. The other piece I've identified for me certainly is I've kind of classified under this self-sabotage and these are words taken from kind of things I've listened to and read and stuff but for me I think self-sabotage in one way is overworking so doing the wrong things but the other is limiting the
BenP (22:51)
Mmm.
Frances Nichols (23:15)
jobs that you go for because you don't think that you've earned that or you can't perform at that level. Even though all of the evidence stacks up to say that you'd be a great candidate for that role, can't, again, you haven't internalised your success in the way that you can convert that into confidence in applying for other roles. And I think I've stayed in a toxic role before because I felt fortunate and lucky and my goodness, think, you know, this is all I can really hope for.
and then it takes something quite drastic to trigger you out of that thinking being like this isn't what I want to be doing this isn't where my value sits I could be giving so much more and it kind of kicks you out of a rut and but sometimes you need help to get there because you play it safe you sit where you're comfortable and I think it can be career inhibiting at its worst for sure.
BenP (24:12)
And then how does that that lead I guess from like an anxiety perspective does that lead to anxiety that that Where does that lead?
Frances Nichols (24:22)
Yeah, I think it's an unfortunate sort of self perpetuating cycle. But what's so kind of cruel about it is that we're driving these destructive behaviors based on what we think other people think of us. So it's not based in reality. It's not based in constructive feedback. You're not addressing things that are kind of will provide a positive outcome to your career. You're internalizing a narrative of yourself that you have created for yourself. And if you don't fact check that
and bring yourself back to reality. All you're doing is getting into this cycle of they must think I'm terrible. I'm going to do all of this overworking and overcompensating and self-sabotage to make sure I've either can see that I've kind of deserved this or that I'm career limiting myself into my comfort zone so I'm never going to be found out. So I think it is a really unfortunate cycle of kind of being triggered, exhibiting these behaviors.
creating anxiety and like I said you sort of need to really check yourself to kind of bring yourself out of that loop to really think and challenge yourself on the decisions that you're making and the behaviours you're exhibiting in your workplace.
BenP (25:34)
Yeah, interested, interested.
So we thought about some experiences both you and I have sort of felt for imposter syndrome perspective we thought about maybe the impact it's sort of had on your career what about advice you know for for those people that feel imposter syndrome based on your experience what advice would you share?
Frances Nichols (25:59)
So I think the main one is don't just sit with it. Don't accept that, you know, that is how it is. Don't...
don't think that because you feel nervous or challenged that your perception of something is based in reality. So there's a couple of things I think you can do. I think when I've been in women's events and we've spoken about it and there's a huge narrative around imposter syndrome, what that means for various people. But I think it kind of, leads us down this path of feeling like it's a badge of honor. And it's very inspiring to listen about to senior women, male CEOs, whoever, whoever that you are, whoever you identify with that say, I get it too. And so there's
that kind of relief and validation that you feel from that. And you wear it like a badge of honour, it's you know like, me too, I feel included, it feels inclusive and supportive. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't kind of try and challenge the things that trigger this imposter syndrome and like I said those behaviours that then drives you into perpetuating and leads to that inhibition. So yeah, challenge yourself on it, check yourself.
There's ways I think that you can do that and some of it is your network and any mentors that you've come across within your career. I think it's hugely important. These people can take an objective view of you and if they are credible to you, you respect them, you identify with them, aspire even to be like them or have careers like they've had, then if you trust them to bring you back to that kind of sense of reality of this isn't how you're perceived,
This is how you are credibly kind of delivering for organisation and turning up for yourself. I think, you know, checking in with credible people within your network that you trust to give you a sense of reality and bring you bring you back to that is really important as well.
BenP (27:55)
I think that's really important, it? Particularly when we're in this digital social media type world where whether it be...
personal life or business life, you know, I I have to really because it's the most effective way of promote my business use things like LinkedIn all the time, right? So so I have to professionally live out there on LinkedIn and therefore you're gonna get lots of feedback from lots of different people people that agree with you people that disagree with you and what you're saying there is actually Lean on those people that you trust those people who will give you the real feedback that tells you
Frances Nichols (28:16)
Mm.
BenP (28:37)
This could be better because you need to hear that and that will give you the real feedback good That was brilliant. Forget what they're saying, know, like what the heck are they thinking and and use that important? I mean, what's up net when you talk about your network of mentors? What sort of mentors do you have?
Frances Nichols (28:39)
Mm.
Yeah.
So.
I have been very fortunate to have kind of relationships with senior colleagues in organisations that I've worked with and have stayed in touch with that I've reached out to on various occasions. I have also had the fortune of working with an executive coach as well, which is hugely beneficial. But I think the difference between having a network of mentors that you've worked with is that they can talk to you about how you come across. They can check, you know, if you're sat with a perception of like,
of these people think I'm a fraud, you know, I don't know what my contribution is, that was such a stupid question, why did I ask that? And they've been in the room with you and their perception is actually everyone wanted to ask that question, that people have been inspired by, you know, facing some vulnerabilities and drawing important points out of the conversation in a room, that no one thinks you're a fraud because, you know, you've got that credible contribution you're making. So I think having people that you've worked with that you
keep in your network that can speak and attest to what the perception is in the room. It challenges you constantly on, okay, that's not quite right. My perception of the situation is different to the reality. So I just need to keep checking in on this.
BenP (30:11)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's nice to have those mentors, isn't it, from different walks of life with different skill sets, that give you all of those sort of different perspectives that don't think just like you or have got different experience as well. That really helps, doesn't it?
Frances Nichols (30:25)
Yeah, exactly. And hopefully people are moving into a far more diverse workforce. think the diversity aspect is that actually I'm not there to be a technical specialist in a lot of a lot of rooms. makes me feel exposed because sometimes I don't understand the technology. What I do understand is the business impact, the organisational impact, the opportunity, some of the challenges in getting that over the line. And, you know, you have to remind yourself that who are you in that room? What is your value? Why have you been brought into it? It's probably not because I'm a
expert because I'm not but the value I'm bringing to that room and if you have selected and you've got a diversity you lean on your teammates you lean on your colleagues that have got that diverse skill set but yeah.
BenP (31:09)
Yeah, we thought about, so don't just sort of, so the advice we thought about, don't just sit with it, don't just accept it. We thought about leaning on your networks and your mentors. Any other tips and tricks that you'd share?
Frances Nichols (31:24)
So I think...
We
go towards this kind of dependency on external validation, which is what gets us into the situation that we need that feedback. We need to kind of understand that value. So on one hand, it is good to have the reality check because we are all dependent on that kind extrinsic validation. If you can think about getting to know yourself, getting to know your value set, getting to know what it is that you bring to each of the situations that you're in, really reflecting on that.
and what you want to be perceived for, then you can start thinking about the things that contribute to validating that and internalizing that a little bit more. I think if we look at the behaviors that are driven from the need for extrinsic validation, we can kind of move away from that. You might not be able to address the triggers that lead us into that, but you can address the behaviors that you exhibit because of that dependency and try
and internalise some of the successes that you've had and that credibility you've built.
BenP (32:30)
Yeah, that idea of self-awareness I think is really important, not only in that imposter syndrome scenario, but also just generally if you're aware, well actually I'm good at this, but I've got a bit of a weakness here. This bit I could develop, this bit I as a towering strength. That helps you then.
be coachable for example, I remember when we used to do hiring, the people that were the big red flags were the people that weren't self aware, who thought they were perfect, thought they had no weaknesses because they're like, well you're not gonna be able to coach them are you? Because they don't recognise any of the challenges. So that sort of knowing yourself, knowing your value, both the good bits and the areas of development or areas of weakness is just, I think really, really important.
Frances Nichols (33:17)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, you come across people sometimes that are on the other end of the thing. So if you've got a midpoint is reality, I think you go so far in one direction and you end up in imposter syndrome and your perception is very different to reality. You do get other people that push out the other side who have an overinflated sense of value and worth. They too are far away from reality. But what they have more of a disadvantage is that lack of self-awareness. Where actually, I think people that go to
BenP (33:34)
Yeah.
Frances Nichols (33:47)
towards the self doubt and imposter syndrome are much more closer to themselves, they're much more reflective, much more self aware and you can close that gap on reality and feel very kind of confident and fulfilled I think so there is something to be said about someone who overthinks the situation I'm sure.
BenP (34:03)
Yeah, and on the other side they actually are impossible, you know, because they're sat there going like I'm amazing at this but they haven't learned any new technology or learned any new approaches to anything for the last 10 years and they're churning out the same thing and you go well actually yeah we'd rather you weren't here actually because you don't know what you're talking about.
Frances Nichols (34:16)
No.
it can be quite obstructive, quite.
BenP (34:27)
Okay, so we've got this idea of getting to know yourself, you know, and that's an important thing as well as getting that validation externally. Any other any other tips and tricks that you'd share?
Frances Nichols (34:39)
So there's a lot around reframing and I think it is really important to think about the element of reframing. For me, and there's tons out there about how to reframe the narrative, to challenge yourself on different things. I think reframing for me, one thing is if you turn it on your head or you were talking about a friend, you know, if someone, I can talk about myself and it's like, gosh, I'm just really not sure about this.
someone came at me and said, what are you even doing here? Like, excuse me, I've got 16 years of experience and I can list all of the things that I can't internalize. I can say, look, this is what I'm doing here and this is exactly how I'm going to contribute and this is why this is going to be a success because of me. But without being challenged, I don't know why, but sometimes we're stronger on the defensive. And so if you can hear yourself, defend yourself, turn up for yourself, champion your experience.
BenP (35:13)
Yeah
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
Frances Nichols (35:39)
and just internalise even just a little bit of that, then that can be quite good. think, you know, maybe we're, yeah, like I said, slightly stronger on the defensive and we say all of the things that we should be able to champion for ourselves.
BenP (35:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, and it's like, if I sat down at the pub, I've met up with a friend that I haven't seen for ages, sat down at the pub, a drink, having a chat, and they're going, I'm just such a loser, I don't belong here, I'm gonna get found out, I don't know what I'm doing, I'm rubbish at this, I'm rubbish at that. As a friend.
After I probably agreed and told him he is a loser and we've had a bit of a laugh about it, then I'm like, yeah, but you're not really, are you? You know, like, you're really good at this and you're really, you'd be nice, you'd be kind, you'd build people up, but we don't do that to ourselves, do we? We just have that internal dialogue beating ourselves up as opposed to being the friend down the pub or in the coffee shop or wherever it is that's actually building you up a little bit.
Frances Nichols (36:28)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, and we know how to champion people, you know, we know how to turn up for people. We do it in our careers, we give good reviews, good feedback, we're doing it constantly to other people. So maybe if you've got a way to reframe something, turn it on its head, get it bit defensive, kind of say it as if you're talking about your best friend or your best colleague or whoever it is, and then just listen to what you're saying about yourself and think, okay,
maybe I'm getting a little bit closer to reality if I can internalise some of this stuff.
BenP (37:14)
Brilliant. Francis, I've just glanced at the clock and we are fast running out of time. So as we start to wrap up the episode, what would be key takeaways for people that are walking the dog, listening to this in the car, they've zoned out and they're just zoning back in now in the gym or whatever. What would be the key takeaways for everyone?
Frances Nichols (37:37)
okay.
Just two, so I mean, I am not on LinkedIn. You can find me, you can reach out if you'd like to, but I think really just be kind to yourself. We're all human beings. Your podcast kind of speaks to it. We are all trying to achieve good things for ourselves, our networks and our organizations. So I think just trust people and be kind. One other thing I think that I didn't mention, and I know we're closing up now, but trusting the people that put you where you are, you know, they're not idiots.
you know, you're there because people have recruited you, they've assessed you, sometimes extensively, sometimes less extensively, and they've decided that you should be there. So trust in those people and lean on them. And be kind to yourself, I suppose, would be the final one.
BenP (38:15)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, love it. Well thank you for that. I reflect on the last half an hour of us chatting. That statistic is 70 % of people's.
suffer or affected by imposter syndrome. I think that so it affects a lot of people. So if you are affected by it, you're not alone and it affects people that maybe you wouldn't guess. So I think that's really interesting. And then some of the tips that you've given us there are about,
Frances Nichols (38:45)
Definitely.
BenP (38:52)
self-awareness, understanding yourself, being kind to yourself, but also getting feedback from trusted people around you that can tell you how it is. Really nice. And then this idea of of reframing it, that you should be there, not that you shouldn't be there. Really useful, really useful. So people can get hold of you. If you've got any questions, people can get hold of you on LinkedIn. Yeah, yeah.
Frances Nichols (39:10)
percent.
If it's helpful, yeah, yeah, fine. Just an expert of, you know, expert imposter. More tips for keeping up the ruse. Yeah.
BenP (39:21)
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's not lost to me that you feel like an apost imposter whilst on a podcast talking about Imposter syndrome, so I imagine you've been having
Frances Nichols (39:39)
I know, what a joke.
BenP (39:42)
brilliant.
Frances Nichols (39:43)
I know it's taking a process into the next level I think that one.
BenP (39:46)
Well, I will pop your LinkedIn profile in the show notes so that people can connect with you. Francis, thank you so much. It has been such an interesting conversation. So thank you for taking the time to declare it and be vulnerable and share the reality of what it's like, how it's affected you and some tips that we can take away. So I just want to say, Francis, thank you so much for your time.
Frances Nichols (40:10)
Yeah, I'm glad. Thank you, Ben. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
