Ben Pearce (00:31)
Hey folks and welcome to the Tech World Human Skills Podcast. I don't mind saying it's another great topic today. Today we're talking about feedback, how to give it, how to receive it. It is such a valuable skill but so many people are so bad at it. So to help us today, we have an expert on the subject. She has helped people in the tech world.
with their personal development at so many companies. She's been a trainer, run learning and development departments, and enabled thousands of people in her career. So please welcome people development manager at Unile, Nicholas Slater.
Nicola (01:16)
Ben, thanks for having me on. think when you say tech world human skills, that feels like a summary of my career. I actually started out as a, I think in those days they were called computer programmers, developer back in the mid 90s. Did that for a few years, took a sideways shift gently into sort of tech training and then kind of went from there. So what I do now compared to what I do then, really different, but it all kind of makes.
sense if you look at it. But yeah, so for the last 20 years or so I've been concentrating on the people development side rather than the code development side. So yeah.
Ben Pearce (01:54)
It is.
Brilliant to have you with us. So thank you so much for joining us and to talk about a topic which I think is really important and I've been wanting to do an episode on this for ages and we were talking a few months ago and we were talking about how you were about to run a course in the company that you're working at, Unali, on feedback and I was like brilliant because I've been wanting to do this episode for ages. You're an expert in it. Let's get you on and so I'm so pleased.
that we can talk about it today because in my mind I think it's a really important skill and as I said right in the beginning and it's something that I think I've certainly seen some really bad examples of how to do it so enough from me let me hand over to you why is giving feedback so important
Nicola (02:49)
think feedback in general is, I mean, for you as a person who might get some feedback, it's absolutely sort of rocket fuel for your performance, your career, your development, right? So being able to give it to other people, it is super important to kind of help them grow, develop, be the best they can be. know, the vast majority of people want to be the best they can be at work. So being able to give feedback.
in a positive way that helps people with their growth is one of the most fulfilling, kind, generous things you can do in the workplace really. I think it's that selfless thing of sort of saying, here's a gift almost to help you kind of grow. know, setting aside the practicalities of it helps deadlines get met and people kind of help businesses perform as well really, so.
Ben Pearce (03:25)
Yeah.
So really selfishly as an individual, we want feedback, don't we? Because we want to get better. We want to be the best that we can be. so selfishly, we want people to give us tips and tricks on how we can get better and all of that kind of stuff. But actually, then there's a bit of an emotional bit that goes with receiving people, where people say, logically, I do want to get feedback. And I completely agree with all those things. As long as people, you know.
don't make it awkward, don't upset me. And so actually there's a part of you really want receive feedback at a logical level, but then maybe hate receiving feedback at an emotional level. So maybe people are battling with that as a receiver of feedback and then maybe battle a little bit because they're thinking, right, now I need to be the giver of feedback.
Nicola (04:10)
Yeah.
Ben Pearce (04:31)
and actually it's going to get me in this world now where there's going to be this emotional reaction and it's going to be horrible and do I just need that stress in my life? So people just then don't do it as much as perhaps they should.
Nicola (04:36)
Yeah.
I think the phrase, can I give you some feedback? For a lot of people, sends chills down their spine, right? Because they don't hear, I'm gonna get some feedback, they hear, I'm gonna get told off, or I'm gonna get criticized, right? So that can be quite scary to hear and, you know, really happy to pick up on ways people can make that easier on themselves. But I think because we often...
Ben Pearce (04:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Nicola (05:06)
feel that ourselves. We don't want to be the person saying that phrase either, right, can I give you some feedback? Because we're scared we're going to wreck the relationship, we're going to upset the person. I know when I kind of give this as a course, we do a section on dealing with difficult reactions and that's often one of things that really worries people. What if the person pushes back or cries or gets angry or all of that kind of stuff and so there's that fear, is it going to escalate, but even just the basic fear of
Ben Pearce (05:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nicola (05:35)
how do I say this without wrecking our relationship? And that goes for whether it's line manager direct report or whether it's peer to peer or even the other way around, right? Sometimes we want to give feedback upwards in the line. So I think that phrase, can I give you some feedback is one that I generally tend to wreck. If you can avoid using that phrase, avoid using that phrase. Can we have a chat about, tell me about, you know, that still opens the conversation.
just without raising the hackles and the cortisol and all that kind of stuff that's going on in people's heads really.
Ben Pearce (06:10)
Yeah, yeah. So, so, so as we start, you know, start to dig into this and we'll get to the how in a bit, but, you know, I guess what we're saying is that the act of giving feedback comes from a place of kindness, comes from a pace of compassion. So if I was walking around with my flies undone or, you know, or my shirt was, or my blouse was undone, you know, whatever, whatever it is, you'd want somebody to tell you that, wouldn't you?
Nicola (06:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. And I think what you often see in business is people will tell everybody else that but you, right? So they'll spend a little while, for want of a better word, bitching behind you about, so and so, so rude in that meeting or so and so terrible at their presentations. And because it's almost easier to tell somebody else about it than it is them. And I think, you know, one of the models I really like in this area is radical candor.
Ben Pearce (06:43)
Okay, yeah,
Nicola (07:03)
which is, it's a book and a bit of a movement, there's website by a lady called Kim Scott. She's got a tech background, so it's really interesting. And she sort of divides management in general and feedback specifically into sort of four quadrants, depending on how honest you are, but how caring you are as well. And for her, the great feedback, the radical candor, although she now calls it compassionate candor, comes from a place where you're both honest and caring. And I think sometimes,
Ben Pearce (07:21)
Okay.
Okay.
Nicola (07:33)
we back away from the honest because we think they're opposites of each other. Well, I'm either honest or I'm caring. And actually the trick is to be honest and caring. And I think people either get really soft and so lose the honesty. You will get some people around who are in what I call the Simon Cowell quadrant, which she officially calls obnoxious aggression, which is where you're honest, but not caring, right?
Ben Pearce (07:43)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay. Okay.
Nicola (08:01)
So sometimes, I don't know if you've ever encountered somebody like that, tell it like it is, I tell it like it is, and they're quite proud of that. That can affect relationships, right?
Ben Pearce (08:08)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and that can be as good as, as bad as it is good. You know, it can be great that that honesty has been shared and it could be very relevant and right for whatever the word right means, but the way it's delivered can cause such damage that perhaps it's not on boarded or not taken seriously or yeah.
Nicola (08:26)
Yeah, I mean, there is something to be said for that approach only in that it's giving the person that information they need to improve or get better. It's just done in a way that is probably going to send them on a bit of a down before they can act on that feedback. So the trick is to give that honesty, but in a caring way. I think, I think one of the problems is we often define caring as not upsetting.
And actually if we redefine what caring means, caring is about helping that person be the best they can be or to improve their performance. And so a lot of the times when we soften up the message or we avoid the message full stop, we're actually worrying about our own feelings rather than what's great for them really.
Ben Pearce (09:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's for me why this is such an important subject because it's about being a great human. Yeah. And I think that's really important being an eye, you know, for me, that's one of my really important values. It's the motto of my kids school, which is lovely, like kindness matters. And so that is a really good thing. But then I also want to get results, right? Like I want to do good stuff and I want us to achieve great things and do brilliant stuff, which means high performance. You know, that means we need to get stuff done well and to a standard.
Nicola (09:22)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Pearce (09:44)
And so to get to be on that quadrant where we can say, hey, I'm trying to be the best human I can be, the kindest I can be, and also try and help you be the best we can be so that we can achieve this great thing that we need to do. If you can get that right, they are like the best leaders for me where you've got people that can do that really effectively.
Nicola (09:44)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, I've had leaders as well who, you know, I will tell a story about one time where I messed up big-styly at work. And the feedback was basically, OK, this is how we might actually deal with the situation at hand. But what did you learn? Right. Brilliant.
because I keep that lesson with me today, what did I learn from that mess up? okay, I'll never do that again. And I think just that challenge, he didn't tell me off, but the feedback was just, okay, what could you do differently next time? And I think it was great that he raised that. It would have been very easy to just gloss over it, but just, you know, that gentle push, what could you do differently, was a really nice way of showing me, notice that messed up.
but at the same time getting a really positive lesson out of it. I hired a third party who turned out not to be a great third party to work with and it's taught me some lessons, right? So I think it's good to challenge. I think going back to your child's school, if kindness matters, but if...
Ben Pearce (11:06)
Okay.
Nicola (11:17)
Johnny's running around the playground pulling all the girls' pigtails, is it kindness not to tell Johnny off because we'll upset him? Or is it kindness to say, actually that's really inappropriate and you'll get on much better with those girls if you're nice and kind and civilized to them than if you're running around, you know. And it's that definition of kindness. So it's finding a way to give the feedback in a way that has the positive effects, but still challenges, poor performance, underperformance, performance that could be better, behavior that could be better, whatever it is.
Ben Pearce (11:24)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I think this is a brilliant topic and it's also really interesting that I think this is a great skill. It's not just for people managers. I think it's brilliant to be able to have these conversations with peers, like you talked about managing up, managing down, managing left, to be able to have these kind of honest conversations. It's not just a people manager skill. And actually I've seen some people managers.
awful at this. So it's also a great skill to reinvest in and refresh if you're a people manager as well.
Nicola (12:16)
Yeah, I I gave this course a couple of times two weeks ago. I was in our New York office for the week. So I gave it kind of an open course to the population there. And the vast majority of people in that room were not line managers.
So there we were very much talking about the peer to peer stuff. You know, they collaborate with other departments within Unile. So there's work that's handed over or behaviour and stuff like that. So we talked very much on that kind of that level. And then I also gave it to the the C-suite at Unile. So that was very much the leadership level. And then obviously they have slightly different challenges and slightly different angles on it. So the message is still the same. The examples are a little bit different.
Ben Pearce (12:47)
Yeah.
Nicola (12:58)
But in terms of being able to talk to your colleague who's perhaps missed a deadline or done a piece of work that perhaps isn't quite up to scratch or has maybe given you a handover document that isn't quite where it is, it is still kind to them to give them that feedback. And again, in a culture where you've got a company culture that's open to that, then again, that's still valuable feedback, whoever it comes from, really.
Ben Pearce (13:25)
Well, let's dig into it, because anybody that knows me knows I love a good framework. I love a way to sort of, somewhere to hang my thoughts so that when I'm suddenly in this situation where I need to give some feedback or I wanna do some feedback, right, this is a place I can start. Now, I might need to modify it, I might need to change it, I might need to improvise in the moment, but it's a place for me to start. And I believe you've got a brilliant model to share with us on how to practically give this feedback.
Nicola (13:32)
Ha ha ha ha!
Yeah, I too love a good framework. I will share several, but also working in learning and development, I love a good acronym. And if we can't shoehorn things into an acronym, by golly, we'll do our best, right? So you'll see this framework called lots of different things, but it all boils down to the same thing. So I call it, it's called the COIN framework, C-O-I-N. Cheesy, I'm giving you the gift of feedback. It's a coin, right? It's a gold coin.
Ben Pearce (14:01)
Okay.
You
Okay. Okay.
Nicola (14:21)
Nice and cheesy. so basically it's the C is for context. So you start the conversation by talking what you want to talk about. The O is what you've observed. So observed examples. And I would say this is almost one of the key things when you're giving feedback. And this is whether it's what's now called developmental feedback, critical feedback, whatever you want to call it, or praise actually, the more specific you can be, the more likely it is to land well with the recipient.
because they'll know exactly what good looks like, what you're talking about, but also it does make it harder for them to push back or get defensive. So the more observed examples you can have, or at least have one, if you've got no clear observed examples, it is not the right time to give feedback. So if you're thinking of giving somebody feedback and just sort of saying, you're not assertive enough in team meetings, or your presentation skills need to get better.
That's not going to work, right? That's too soft, too fluffy, too wooly. What you need to be able to say is, I've noticed in the last three client meetings that you haven't spoken up, you know, you've got a specific thing there to call on. Or I noticed that in that presentation you an R to an extent where it's distracting. Right. So again, it's that specific observed example. So I think the O is really important. The I is for impact. What difference does it make?
Right, the behaviour or the performance that you're, what difference does that make? And I think that's another one to really be aware of when you're preparing to give your feedback. Because sometimes there isn't an impact. Something I've seen sometimes, particularly in the line manager relationship, is they'll give feedback just because somebody's doing something in a different way from they would do it. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad way, it's just not their way. So again, if you sit and think about what is the impact of that?
Ben Pearce (16:09)
Okay.
Yeah.
Nicola (16:16)
Well, actually, it's still got done. It's still got done well. Maybe I should just sit with my discomfort that they're not my clone and crack on with it. So again, the impact is handy to really pay attention to. And then N is for next step. So what you need to see differently or what needs to change going forward. So I think the coin model is great. I have some reservations with using it as a way to structure the conversation.
Ben Pearce (16:21)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, so just to refresh, so C context. So just really quickly in a short sentence, so C context, what does context mean?
Nicola (16:46)
And what, yeah, go for it.
Yeah. So that is the thing you want to talk about. So it might be, I give you some feedback about this morning's team meeting? Or can I give you some feedback about yesterday's presentation?
Ben Pearce (17:01)
Okay.
So C context, this is the context we're in. O, observation, this is the behaviour I observed. I, impact, this is the impact it had. And then the N, steps, therefore, do this thing. Do this differently, think about this in a different way. So that's a lovely way to think about it. But then you started to say, before I rudely interrupted you, but that's not how you'd structure the conversation. So how would you then structure that conversation?
Nicola (17:21)
Absolutely that.
So if I give you an example, say for example, I'm in a team meeting, I'm managing a team, and I notice one of my team, Jane, for want of a better name, is on her mobile phone all the way through that team meeting. Right, so after the team meeting, if I go to her and say, Jane, here's my context, can I talk to you about the team meeting? I notice you're on your phone all the way through that team meeting.
It made it look like you weren't listening. I think you missed some valuable information. It also looked a bit rude and disrespectful. So there's my eye. So next time I'd like you to keep your phone away. I've delivered the feedback and I've used the coin model. It does feel a little bit, I'm telling you off, I'm wagging my finger at you. So what I would always recommend if you can.
Ben Pearce (18:16)
Yeah
Nicola (18:20)
we'll talk in a second, there's some odd situations where you've got to go in like that, right? Somebody turns up to work with no trousers on, you're not going to sit and have any kind of conversation and exploration. You're going to be like, you've got no trousers on, go home and put some trousers on, right? But if I instead change it and say, Jane, can I have a quick chat about the team meeting? And I might want to put my observation there. I notice you're on your phone a lot, but instead of then going into, is everything okay? What's going on? Talk to me about that.
Ben Pearce (18:20)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Nicola (18:49)
or even just really loosely, Jane, talk to me about the team meeting this morning, is everything okay? A lot of times when you're giving feedback, people know what's coming. So there's no need to lay it out, right? That's just patronizing. But also I think making it a conversation like that, A, takes away the fear of the, I give you some feedback, which is scary on both ends, and also opens it up to being a problem solving conversation rather than a me telling you off. I mean, why could Jane have been on her phone?
Ben Pearce (18:54)
Yeah.
Yeah, all kinds of really important issues, personal work, could be a million reasons why she had to be on that phone call. And equally, there could be a million reasons why she shouldn't have been on that phone call and didn't need to be on that phone call. So it's that exercising curiosity, isn't it really?
Nicola (19:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
So it.
Exactly that then. Yes, it's exactly that. You know, it could have been my child's nursery texted and I needed to find some care to go and pick my kiddy up. Fine. Okay, great. Is there anything else you need? And you've suddenly looked like the most caring manager in the world and great, you know it's not a big issue and it's not going to happen again. It could be, I had a really important email from a client and I was just sorting that out, in which case it might be, okay, fine. Or it might be, actually, let's have a chat about...
priorities I'd really like in the team meeting for you to be focused on the team meeting and you can pick up with the client afterwards. It might be I hate that meeting I don't know why I always get invited to it I've got nothing to contribute I've got nothing to gain from it and again different conversation but you've opened up that conversation or it could be that Jane just goes sorry won't do it again right they're all different conversations but you've understood a bit more about Jane and her motivations and what's going on in that situation.
Ben Pearce (20:08)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So a couple of things. So maybe one thing I'm interested in is the idea of feedback in the moment versus waiting for feedback versus first strike, second strike, third strike feedback. When do you start to mention it? When do you start to give this feedback?
Nicola (20:57)
I'll tell a story. I said at the beginning that I used to work in tech and I'd started out writing code. I don't know why. For those listening, you won't see me, but I'm doing the typing thing with my fingers because that's what you do when you write code, I started out writing code, moved into business analysis, and then I became an IT project manager and I was working for a huge organization doing a SAP implementation. I wasn't particularly enjoying it. It had been a career move that
probably I was starting to realise maybe wasn't for me.
But cracking on, doing my best, all of that kind of stuff. Nobody had said anything. So there was just this sense of, I'm not sure this is for me. And then I went to my annual review, year-end review. I welcomed into the room, hello, Nicola, sit down. You're getting a 0 % pay rise, a 0 % bonus. We are demoting you a grade. And you are top of our list for head count cuts if we're asked to make any head count cuts, because you're not doing very well.
Don't wait that long, don't wait that long to get rid it!
Ben Pearce (22:01)
Wowzers. So that was a year, yeah that was a year, that was like everything saved up and the trigger pulled at the end of year review. Right.
Nicola (22:07)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was saved up and trigger pulled and it was such a shock to hear. And I think my frustration, now, obviously the story ended happily ever after. It was in that organization that I made the switch into L &D. So it all turned out fine, right? Which is why I can tell the story, because it's kind of funny. It wasn't very funny at the time, but it was a shock to hear. And it becomes such a big thing by the time it was even tackled.
Ben Pearce (22:14)
Yeah.
Nicola (22:35)
And I think had you tackled it small, had it been tackled small, there would have probably been a point fairly early on where the conversation would have been, I'm not enjoying this, can I go back to writing code please? Right, which would have allowed them to put somebody on the project who could do that role. It would have allowed me a career, tip back into what I was good at. And instead, and I see this sometimes, you know, now I'm part of people teams and HR teams.
And you sometimes hear anecdotally that people will steer away from feedback for so long and then it becomes like a PIP issue or a serious issue and it's like, well, HR will deal with it now. I don't even have to have the difficult conversation. I'll just give it to HR. And of course, HR, they've got anything about them, will push that right back. So I think that's an extreme example. I think on a day-to-day basis, I've got another free framework for you, Ben.
which is the accountability dial by a chap called Jonathan Raymond. And I love the accountability dial and having discovered it myself, I use it a lot, but it also goes down very well when I tell other people. And this is a framework for when you go in, but how hard your message is when you go in. So the recommendation with that is go in the first time. So when we've seen Jane on her phone in the team meeting, don't say,
Ben Pearce (23:38)
Okay.
Nicola (24:03)
well it's only one off let's see if it happens again and then let's see if it happens again because people will wait for the second and then they'll wait for the third and then they'll wait for the fourth and it's like well how can I tackle it now? Whereas if you're going the first time but that really gentle light conversation how is everything what can I do about this? Somebody misses a deadline and I noticed you were due to get this to me at the end of yesterday it's now lunchtime anything I can help with is everything okay?
What can I do to help you get this on time next time? Going really light, but the first time. And then that accountability dial framework basically says, first time, it might well fix the problem because you're problem solving. Second time, you make it a slightly bigger deal, but you're still problem solving. Third time, gets a meeting of its own to discuss. And then as you move forward and nothing changes, then you can start talking about things like consequences.
what's gonna happen if nothing changes, which might be we need to pull you off the project, but it might also be let's put you on a training course, let's give you a mentor, whatever it is. So I think I really like that accountability dial model because it takes away that uncertainty, should I tackle it and how should I tackle it? It says go in small but light, but then also get to a point where you're gonna set boundaries.
Ben Pearce (25:09)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Nicola (25:26)
Because again, one of the other things that happens is if we don't see change, we still just keep letting it go and keep letting it go. And then the people around us are like, well, they're getting away with it. Why shouldn't I start getting away with
Ben Pearce (25:39)
So it's nip it in the bud early, isn't it? That's the thing. Now, I do remember years ago, there must've been a book that come out, and I can't remember, but it certainly was very much came in fashion for a while of coaching in the moment. So literally, as the thing is happening, you give the feedback there and then. So if we're going back to our phone in the team meeting example, and...
Nicola (25:41)
Yeah, yeah.
Ben Pearce (26:05)
calling it out there and then feedback in the moment. What are your thoughts on that approach?
Nicola (26:09)
Mm-hmm.
think that works just as well right if in that meeting I was able to say Jane is everything okay you know but again it's Jane is everything okay not Jane put your phone down and I think in the moment that's great the trouble you've got with coaching in the moment is that there's a saying criticize in private praise in public
Ben Pearce (26:24)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Nicola (26:36)
So in that team meeting, the issue you've got is if you're calling out in public, because there's other people in the meeting, you might want to be a bit wary of.
Ben Pearce (26:44)
Yeah, you know, that's interesting. I hadn't heard that, but I think I really agree with you there because I think if it's an emergency bit of feedback, like so-and-so hasn't got his trousers on, right, we need to give that like now, right? There is a thing, there's a situation that we need to get on top of now. But if not, it's very much an emotional reaction from me as the giver.
Nicola (27:01)
Yeah, yeah.
Ben Pearce (27:10)
So I've seen something, had an emotional reaction to it and instantly, I've not gone and thought about it. I've not gone and thought through the impact, thought through the coin model, that kind of stuff. I've literally then gone back in and often I've sort of, I think it can escalate the situation a little bit because now they have an emotional reaction and now we're butting heads over an emotional reaction in front of lots of people perhaps.
Nicola (27:26)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Ben Pearce (27:34)
And maybe that's not a nipping it in the bud. Maybe that's an undue escalation. I don't know.
Nicola (27:39)
I think that's a really valid point, Ben. think, you know, often we talk about give it as soon as you can. So it might be that we talk to Jane straight after the meeting rather than in the meeting. But again, like you say, if it's stirred up something within me, maybe it's a bugbear that I have, I hate lateness and she's turned up late or, you know, something's happened. You've got to calm down yourself. And like you say, a bit of rehearsal, a bit of planning, a bit of how am going to phrase this? What is my impact? What is my observations?
Ben Pearce (27:50)
Yeah.
Nicola (28:09)
But there's a difference between maybe picking up that day or the next day and leaving it for three weeks until the next team meeting and then seeing whether it happens again. It depends why you're pausing, I think is key there really.
Ben Pearce (28:22)
Brilliant. So that's the accountability dial. Start slow, quickly, nip it in the bud, maybe not in the moment, depending on where we are, and then dial that up, you know, and give that a few. Now, there is another classic one that comes out all the time, you know, and I'm gonna put the explicit filter on this podcast because it is the shit sandwich, right? Can you unpack your thoughts? And so that is praise, critique.
Nicola (28:41)
Hahaha!
Yep.
Ben Pearce (28:52)
Praise can you unpack your thoughts on what you think of that approach?
Nicola (28:57)
think the thing with the shit sandwich is if I think back to my early career, and we are talking late 90s here, very different time, that was how we were recommended to do it. So I'm trying gently in my own little personal way to get everybody to shift away from that. And I think there is a shift away from that. And I think there's a couple of problems with it, right? You'll get some people who only hear the praise, the bread, which is, know, hey, I really love the energy you brought to that team meeting.
Ben Pearce (29:07)
Right?
Nicola (29:26)
Your slides are a bit complicated. It was a bit hard to understand your message, but you clearly were ready to answer all the questions and all that. Right, we've got praise, we've got criticism, we've got praise. There are some people who won't hear the criticism because it's been outweighed by the praise. And also you finished with the praise. But there will be more people who do it the other way around and only hear the criticism and are so aware of the model that they think that the...
outside bits, the praise, is only there to allow the person to deliver the bit in the middle. Right? So to coin a phrase, they're waiting for the shoe to drop when you say, I love the energy you brought to that meeting and everything. It's like, yeah, and? And it's like, that didn't count at all. Let's just get into the criticism. Just say what you want to say, right? So I would say in a situation like that, just separate them. Hey, love the energy you brought to the meeting. You were clearly prepared. You could answer the client and all that kind of stuff.
Ben Pearce (29:58)
Okay.
Yeah.
Nicola (30:20)
One bit of advice for next time, maybe simplify your slides a bit because it was a bit hard to follow. So maybe we can have a look at how you could work on that. Something like that. What I'd probably start with is tell me how you think the meeting went, right? And get it from them first. But I would definitely, absolutely, because they might turn around and go, well, I thought they all went well, except I could tell I'd lost them with my slides. Brilliant, right? So you've done a bit of coaching there. You've got the answer coming from them. But yeah, no, if we can avoid the...
Ben Pearce (30:33)
Yeah, yeah, Exercise that curiosity to begin with, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nicola (30:50)
shit sandwich. Yeah I'd really like to phrase that one out because it doesn't... people know what's coming or they choose to ignore the feedback in the middle right so yeah let's not do that.
Ben Pearce (30:52)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but it's an interesting point that you brought up about the praise because often people hear the word feedback and we always think of that as a negative thing. Back to your bit right at the beginning, like, can I give you some feedback is a massive negative trigger. What about positive praise, this praise side of it? How does that fit with the coin model? And how often should you be using that?
Nicola (31:24)
Yeah.
Ben Pearce (31:29)
Is there a ratio of praise to critique or... Do you know what mean?
Nicola (31:33)
Yeah, no, think it fits really well with the coin model, to be honest with you. think, again, the more specific you can make it. So you've got your observed examples. I love the slide deck or I loved, you know, the way you you managed that situation or something like that. But again, the more specific that you can. So bless them. After I did the C-suite version of this, my boss kind of, and I will normally say don't.
do feedback via Teams messaging and stuff, but she was allowed, right? You can't really take, no, don't, don't. But she shared some positive feedback after the session and she was very specific with it. And part of me was warmed by getting some positive feedback and part of me was warmed that clearly a little bit of the course at least had sunk in. it was a double win for me. But yeah, the more specific you can make the praise, but again, observed examples and again, if you can add some impact onto that.
Ben Pearce (32:05)
Hahaha!
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Nicola (32:31)
Good work, nice job. I once read something that said if it's the sort of phrase that you would say to your pet dog, it's not real praise. Right, I don't know how to take that. Sometimes a good worker, I mean, I'm not sure if my boss starts telling me to sit in the office, then you know you're in big trouble, But if it's good work, nice job, well done, they work, right? Sprinkled around, but the stuff that will really, A, make you feel good, but B, also, the thing with praise is,
Ben Pearce (32:36)
You
Good boy.
Nicola (33:00)
A bit like with criticism, you want people to know what they should be doing different to improve their performance. With praise, you want people to know what's going really well so they can do more of it. So again, exactly that. Whereas good work and good work, nice job, Whereas love the slide design or whatever it is. Love that strategy, it was really clear and it spells out a really nice three-step process. great, okay, now I know what.
Ben Pearce (33:10)
So you can reinforce that behaviour. Yeah, because they know what you like, yeah.
Nicola (33:30)
what has been praised for me so I can do more of that. I think my only caveat is where I said before, criticizing private, praising public, some people don't really like their praise being public either. So it can be worth, again, particularly if you're in a line management situation and you're thinking, should I call them out of the company all hands? Just check in first whether that's gonna work for them or not.
Ben Pearce (33:40)
Okay, okay, okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, okay Well, i'm looking at the time and time is racing away from us as it always does I love these conversations But but there's a bit that we haven't talked about a bit much which is which is receiving feedback because often we think about Right, this is how i'm gonna give it. This is how i'm gonna share my opinion. This is what I thought but how about Reacting to feedback what's if you've got any coaching on
Nicola (33:58)
Yeah.
Ben Pearce (34:22)
how to accept praise or critique or to, yeah.
Nicola (34:24)
Sure thing. Absolutely. So again, got a lovely little acronym for you. all acronyms all the time in my job, which is ACT. So you want to act on feedback. So you want to accept it. So you don't push back on it straight away. You say, thank you. okay. I'm really glad you shared that feedback with me. You're just gonna accept it. Then you're gonna consider it. I'll talk a little bit. So reasons...
Ben Pearce (34:30)
have you? Brilliant. Lovely. Love it.
Nicola (34:54)
There's a fabulous, there's a lady called Sheila Heen, H-W-E-N, who does a lot of great work in this area. She's got books, she's got podcasts, she's got TED Talks, love her work. And she sort of says that there's like three triggers that can make us want to push back on feedback. So it's the C, so S-E-E, do I see that feedback? So this is where the observed examples come in. I don't agree with you.
Or it might be the we, so you might be pushing back because of the person who it's from, so is our relationship an issue? Or there's the me, which is your feedback is about something that you hold very dear to your sense of self. So particularly if it's a piece of feedback that goes counter to what you believe. So say there's something you're great at, you feel you're great at and somebody gives you some critical feedback about it, it can be very easy to push back. So the consider is to just say, is there any truth in this or am I jumping to my triggers and immediately?
jumping away. So you might take a couple of days to consider it. And then the T is for thank. So even if you decide not to act on it, because you don't have to, right? There may well be impacts and consequences, but it's your choice whether you want to, you know, take those or not. But thanks. So you accept it, you consider it, and then you thank the person. Because the thing about pushing back and not thanking and all that kind of stuff is if you become, or you are the sort of person who is difficult to give feedback to, people will stop giving you feedback.
Ben Pearce (36:00)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Nicola (36:24)
And if feedback is one thing that helps us superpower our careers and helps us develop and grow, the last thing we want is a reputation for, I'm not giving him feedback again because it's always a nightmare, right? So what I often advise people is if you've got somebody in area who is difficult to give feedback to, give them that feedback because it can be coached. A bit of self-awareness. I know that if I'm given critical feedback,
Ben Pearce (36:34)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Nicola (36:53)
that consider is a good 48 hours before I'm ready to talk about it a bit more and act on it. Because immediately the bottom falls out my world. But then I come back up. So I share that with managers and people around me and then it's like, okay, thanks. Can we put some more time in in 48 hours to chat it through? Because I need a bit of time just to.
Ben Pearce (37:01)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, no it's interesting. I've not heard that acronym before but I really like it and if I think through when I get feedback, I think I've sort of gone through that and I've learned that myself but without learning that and so I wish I had earlier in my career because I know when I rationally love the idea of feedback, love the idea of getting better until I get given it and then
Nicola (37:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Pearce (37:41)
I'm quite an emotional person I'll have an emotional reaction and earlier in my career what that meant was I was trying to accept it but my face was telling them you know if my face had gone like thunder do you know what mean or I'm now like pushing and so actually I had to learn right that accept piece is for me means I need to put on a poker face because I've got an expressive face and it's expressing my inner thoughts so I have to pop on a poker face
And then I just write it down and try and say, you, you know, and then there's that consider and that thanks, because then I can go and consider and go, actually, you're right. You know, that was an emotional reaction I was having and you've got a very valid point, but that's not what my face is saying to them as they're giving it, which then means they stop giving it.
Nicola (38:23)
Yes, yeah. No, don't think you're unusual in that, Ben. think, you know, I give a 90 minute course on this stuff and it goes into brain and how your brain works and all this kind of stuff. But it is quite normal for people to be quite affected. But how long, how much that affects them and how long that affects them varies from individual to individual. So if you know yourself actually doesn't bother me, great. But if you know actually I'm gonna need a week before we can talk about this again.
Ben Pearce (38:45)
Yeah.
Nicola (38:53)
If you can say that to whoever's giving you the feedback, look, thank you for the feedback, let me work on it, I'll come back to you in a week. Great. But yeah, the poker face is absolutely fine because what it means you know not to do is elongate that meeting for another half an hour trying to talk it through. Now is not the time. I've heard your feedback, that's lovely, but I know I need 48 hours a week to digest it and then I'll come back. Because to some extent it is...
criticism, right? And that can be hard to take. It's just softening it and knowing ourselves. But one other thing I would say that can lessen that is if we get into the habit of asking for feedback. So rather than waiting for somebody to say, can I give you some feedback? And then they can give it on any topic they like at any point of the day they like. If you get into the habit of asking for it, you control the when it happens. So actually today is really stressful. I'm really busy. I'm not in the mood.
Ben Pearce (39:24)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Nicola (39:53)
I'll do it tomorrow and I'm feeling chipper, so go for it. You can control who you ask it of. So it might be somebody who you really respect in that area or somebody you know does great work. So again, that we trigger isn't triggered. And then the what, right? So again, if somebody says, I give you some feedback? It might be on something that you're not really bothered about. Okay, I'm okay at that skill. I'm not really looking to become an expert in that skill. Whereas,
Ben Pearce (40:02)
Yep. Yep.
Nicola (40:22)
I know I really want to get better at X. I want to write the neatest code I can write or I want to be the best storyteller I can be, whatever. So I'm going to specifically ask for feedback on that topic so I can improve my skills. Or, you know, it might be something where you're trying to fill a performance gap. I know I need to get better at X, so I'm going to ask for feedback on it.
Ben Pearce (40:43)
Yeah.
Nicola (40:44)
It can feel a weird thing to do. An easy way to make that easier is to just ask for one thing. What's one thing I could do to write neater code? What's one thing I could do to be better at storytelling? Easier on the person giving it, easier on you to receive because you've not just been inundated with loads of stuff. And it gives you the control back then.
Ben Pearce (40:59)
Yeah.
Brilliant, well, I've just looked at the clock and I think we need to wrap up. I could talk about this for hours, but I think we need to wrap this up. So let's maybe just think about key takeaways. So from your perspective, for everybody listening to this, what would be the key takeaways that you'd want people to take away with them?
Nicola (41:08)
Okay.
I would say key takeaways, not T takeaways, would be make it a conversation. So rather than thinking about it as I'm gonna tell you a load of stuff and then you're gonna receive it is let's have a conversation to see if we can sort out what's going on. I would say hit it small but fast, or fast but small, whichever way you wanna look at it. And then the third one is if you can get into the habit of asking for little bits of feedback.
Ben Pearce (41:26)
Ha ha ha!
Yeah.
Nicola (41:50)
as and when suits you, that will also build real confidence in the people around you and a sense of safety and then it just gets easier and easier to both give and take. So I would say those are my three, if I could chuck in a fourth, it's use real examples, both for praise and criticism.
Ben Pearce (42:04)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love it. And I love those three frameworks that you gave us. So you gave us coin, which was context, observation, impact, next. Love that. Then you talked about the accountability dial. So basically nipping it in the bud and then, know, quickly, softly, and then dialing that up. And then to receive feedback, act. So that was accept, consider, thanks, wasn't it? So, brilliant.
Nicola (42:22)
Yeah. If you have to, yeah.
Exactly that,
Ben Pearce (42:34)
Nicola, this has been brilliant and I hope really helpful for everybody because it's a skill that everybody needs to get good at and that means investing a bit of time, learning a bit and practicing a bit. So I hope everybody can sort take this to heart and wouldn't it be a wonderful world if everybody was brilliant at giving feedback and everybody was wonderful at receiving feedback. So.
Nicola (42:37)
I hope so.
wouldn't it? And I will ask you for some feedback on how I did Ben after we've come off the call so when we do it in private.
Ben Pearce (42:59)
Yeah, I worked in coaching in the minute, in the moment. So, the final thing for me to say, Nicola, is, you know, no, final thing, if people want to get in touch with you, how can people get in touch with you? LinkedIn, is that where they can...
Nicola (43:14)
LinkedIn is probably the easiest way I'm very easily found Nicholas later on LinkedIn can't miss me
Ben Pearce (43:19)
Yeah, so if you've got any questions about this, I'm sure Nicola would love to help spread the feedback wisdom further. So now the final thing that I'd just love to say is it has been brilliant. So thank you so much for taking the time to help us all out.
Nicola (43:25)
definitely.
I enjoyed it a lot, Ben. Thank you for asking me.
