Ben Pearce (00:02.582)
Hey everyone and welcome to the Tech World Human Skills Podcast and what an episode we have got. Not one, but two guests. Can you believe it? So why? Well, we're talking about a huge problem in tech organisations. How do you create a productive and effective working environment where people aren't stressed, aren't burnt out and actually enjoy their jobs?
To help us with this topic, we have two people that have created a programme to help leaders become the type of manager that you've always wanted. So, please welcome to the show, Helen Joy and Nick Giametta. Helen, Nick, it's lovely to have you with us.
Helen Joy (00:49.922)
Hello, hello, thank you for having us, Ben.
Nick Jemetta (00:50.583)
Hello, thanks for having us on.
Ben Pearce (00:52.518)
It is brilliant to have you with us and it's the first time we've tried two guests, three of us at the same time. So hopefully everything will work out brilliantly. But let's start with introductions. Helen, I'm gonna come to you first. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners?
Helen Joy (01:11.854)
Absolutely. Yeah. So my name is Helen Joy and I run a management development business and I've been doing that.
for myself for 11 years this year. And before that I spent sort of 10, 15 years in the recruitment industry looking after managers in a global recruitment business from people who wanted to be managers, so that future talent right through to regional director level, so the whole range. And now in my own business, I look after managers across all sorts of different sectors, business industries and sizes, and quite a few small tech businesses as well.
Ben Pearce (01:49.59)
Brilliant, really interesting. Well, thank you for joining us. It's lovely to have you. Nick, could you introduce yourself? And of course, Nick, you're coming back. We did an episode, forget what number, but months ago. So Nick, can you reintroduce yourself to our listeners?
Helen Joy (01:54.776)
Thank you.
Nick Jemetta (01:57.786)
Ha.
Nick Jemetta (02:05.203)
I can say hi everyone. My name is Nick Jemetta. My business operates in a few different domains. So I've worked in the tech industry for well over a decade as a product manager and a head of product. I'm now a product coach and advisor. But alongside that, I also do a lot of work in the wellbeing space and the mental health space. And that's through personal lived experience. And I've got a real passion for fusing the emergence of artificial and machine intelligence with human and emotional intelligence.
Just as an anecdote, my career started in recruitment a long time ago and that's where Helen and I met.
Ben Pearce (02:40.938)
Really? Right, okay. So going back a long time. And so now we've sort of come full circle. And so I guess that the recent modern strengths we're talking about is management development and development of leaders, along with what we talked about, was mental wellbeing and how we fuse all of that together to create a really productive, effective environment, like I was talking about, a team where people actually wanna be. But let's start off by thinking about the problem a little bit.
Nick Jemetta (02:41.929)
Yes, a long time.
Ben Pearce (03:10.068)
because my feeling is that that's probably not where the tech industry is, that there's lots of people that are having challenges at the moment about the types of teams they're in. Do you wanna kind of, Nick, could you sort of set the scene for us at the moment? What's the industry like with regards to the teams that people are working in?
Nick Jemetta (03:30.433)
So I I've worked in tech a long time. And what I know from working in tech a long time is that there's a lot of hugely passionate people. There's a lot of money in tech. So it draws a certain type of individual, but there's also a massive amount of pressure. And the reality is that, businesses, UK businesses are spending on average about 10 million pound a year on wellbeing initiatives, but wellbeing at work, particularly in tech has never really been worse. So we've got this huge investment, but I think we're probably investing in the wrong areas. So.
Ben Pearce (03:54.486)
Okay?
Nick Jemetta (03:58.519)
just got a couple of status. So in 2023, employment sickness absence was at the highest level reported for a decade. And unsurprisingly, mental health was one of the top two causes driving not only short term absences, but also long term. So we know that there are going to be folks that need a day off because they're not well, but we're also talking about more perpetual work stress, burnout, all the sorts of outcomes that really don't
don't do anything positive for the humans working in the teams, all the teams themselves. And when we talk about burnout, which you and I, Ben, have talked about before, in 2024, so really, really recently, more than 50 % of employees felt burned out and one in five working adults actually had to take time off work due to burnout. So we're in an environment where I think work is becoming less healthy for us and there's emerging evidence that the more healthy the work,
environment, the more productive we are. And one of the things that I suppose most concerns Helen and I is that the role of a line manager on our wellbeing is massive. And this stat really stood out to me. So 70 % of staff said that managers had the same impact on their wellbeing as their partners. I don't know how many partners felt listening to that. So again, So 70 % of staff piled, I think it was in 2024.
Ben Pearce (05:17.172)
Hold on, hold on. Right, sorry, say that again, say that again.
Nick Jemetta (05:26.975)
said that managers had the same impact on their wellbeing as their partners at home.
Ben Pearce (05:33.142)
It's horrific, it really?
Nick Jemetta (05:35.73)
What?
Ben Pearce (05:37.662)
Right, okay, okay. And I'm just trying to think how I, did I, maybe because yeah, you can get pretty stressed and a lot of demands and you maybe spend more time speaking to your line manager than your partner.
Helen Joy (05:50.126)
Well, that's the thing, isn't it? If you think about the amount of actual interaction and the amount of pressure that somebody puts on you in a working day, the majority of that pressure is going to come from your manager. And then you go home, or go out of the door and into the rest of your house these days. And then, you your partner's potentially seeing that impact of that pressure.
Ben Pearce (06:01.269)
Yeah.
Ben Pearce (06:16.392)
Yeah, yeah.
Helen Joy (06:16.968)
putting pressure on you in a different way because you're working long hours and then they're putting pressure on you to reduce your hours and it's...
Ben Pearce (06:21.462)
And that's quite squaring, not only as a, you when you think about who your boss is, but also thinking when I was a leader, that I had that kind of impact on people's lives. And did I maybe always give that the due respect it deserved? You know, maybe the odd throwaway comment or the odd, you know, I don't know, you you sort of think, wowzers, wowzers.
Nick Jemetta (06:44.663)
And just one point just to sort of build on that Ben is that what I don't want this to feel like is that we're trying to attack managers or belittle how hard the job is. The numbers and the stats that I'm sharing are really a call to action for Helen and I to recognise that managers are squeezed and we all know having been managers you're squeezed from your team, you're squeezed from your own management and I think you're squeezed from the pressure inside your own head. So we think managers are...
probably need some support, particularly in tech businesses. So that's what we're really passionate about is making the lives of managers better. So in turn, they make the lives of their teams better.
Ben Pearce (07:25.898)
Yeah, yeah.
Helen Joy (07:26.414)
And I think particularly in tech over last, sort of over 2024 and coming into 2025, the amount of de-layering that's been happening in the industry. So managers are fewer and far between, which means each manager's got significantly more people that they're responsible for. And so those individuals aren't getting the support that they need. Those managers aren't getting the support that they need. And at the moment, the...
There isn't a massive light at the end of the tunnel for that actually lifting and that changing. And that has such an impact on communication and the capacity to communicate to such vast numbers, the ability to have kind of oversight of what's going on. And how do you keep the morale up of people when you've got a team of 25, 30 people? You just can't, you can't do it easily.
Ben Pearce (08:14.408)
Yeah, yeah, no, it is tough. And I remember it was, you when I was doing it, I do remember, you know, being squeezed by my business objectives, you know, so I got a lot, being squeezed by my, customers I was working with, had their stuff, being squeezed by my boss above.
then being squeezed by the people below, know, just, when I say squeezed, the challenges they were having and were surfacing with me or the turns of that, you know, and then at the end of that, all the technology's changing, like every week, the technology's changing. So you've got to relearn everything that you're doing. And like on the odd occasion, you might have some time to do something that you wanted. But it was, yeah, no, exactly. But, and I'm, you know, just chatting with people I know in the industry.
Nick Jemetta (08:50.071)
Ben, that's for too much, Ben.
Ben Pearce (08:58.358)
Definitely that middle management layer has been reduced quite a lot. I've seen a lot of redundancies around, particularly around that over the last few years, which everybody's span of control getting, and the business doesn't slow down. The customers needs don't reduce. The pace of change of tech doesn't change. So the only variable there is how much time you spend and energy and effort with your direct reports, really. I'm guessing, yeah, it seems to me that's the only thing that is negotiable in inverted commerce.
Helen Joy (09:29.006)
It's the ones that care that are getting most overwhelmed because the person that they put last in everything and in their day-to-day is themselves. And their work takes a backseat and their personal mental health takes a backseat. And they're trying so hard to do everything and they're just, in a lot of organisations, they're kind of being abandoned a little bit.
Ben Pearce (09:54.324)
yeah so how how are how are organizations trying to solve this today helen if i if i can ask you so what's sort of happening at the moment what a company's doing to try and solve this this problem today
Helen Joy (10:11.078)
Well, as Nick said, they are spending a lot of money on it. They are, which is brilliant because there is investment. It's being talked about. It's being discussed. You know, you think we couldn't have had these conversations 10 years ago, it just wouldn't have happened. So there is investment. The challenge is that that investment is going in at the wrong point.
Ben Pearce (10:14.515)
Okay.
Yeah?
Ben Pearce (10:37.728)
Okay.
Helen Joy (10:38.382)
going in at the intervention point rather than the prevention point. So there are employee assistance programs. So most organizations now will have a phone number that you can call when things get too much. There's mental health first aiders in most organizations then. So there are people that you can talk to. There might be access to wellness days or they might have a one day every year where people can come out. The team comes out of the office for the day and everything's made okay on that one day.
Ben Pearce (10:42.678)
Okay.
Ben Pearce (11:06.538)
Yeah.
Helen Joy (11:07.698)
And some of that leads people to believe that maybe there isn't quite the right intention behind this. I think people, you know, I've known people that, and mental health first aid is fantastic, it's a great start point. But I've seen managers go on mental health first aid training and come back petrified because they are now, they feel like they now have to solve everybody's problems and that's actually not.
Ben Pearce (11:17.685)
Yeah.
Helen Joy (11:37.292)
what it's there for and that's the impression they're being given internally is okay you've done that course now you can solve all this and it's you some of these employee assistance programs they're confidential and they're confidential with the air quotes because there are some organizations that have actually had access to the data.
Ben Pearce (11:56.906)
Yeah, I think I remember reading that about that in the news. Awful.
Helen Joy (11:59.862)
Yeah, it's horrifying, isn't it? Absolutely horrifying. And then you've got the... Well, we've got a fuse ball table. We have three fruit fridays. We have a fridge full of Coke. Coca-Cola, by the way.
Ben Pearce (12:11.402)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Okay. That's a different type of company.
Nick Jemetta (12:17.463)
Other brands are available.
Helen Joy (12:19.598)
This isn't marketing we're talking about. But they're all the things that, you know, they sit there and they go and they'll kind of go, we do all these things. Of course we care about our people, but actually the behaviours and the way that the organisation treats people on a day-to-day basis.
completely undermine all of those things but there'll be people within the organisation who make these decisions and go box ticked done yes we're a great organisation so it's great that it's being talked about it's great that it's on the agenda now there's just still such a long way that that we can go
Ben Pearce (12:58.198)
Okay, so rather than these sort of tick boxes, know, like we've done an event this year, you are now well. You're saying actually, there's some things that we can do that are a bit more substantial. know, there aren't the free fruit. Free fruit's lovely, but that's like a cherry on the top. What we want is a great foundation. We want a great working environment. Okay, well I'm in. You know, that's the sort of thing, that sounds wonderful.
Nick Jemetta (13:05.427)
Ha ha ha!
Ben Pearce (13:28.918)
What does this, I guess, what does this ideal team look like? So we talked about what it's not. It's not stressed. It's not well-being days once. It's something else. What is that thing? What does the ideal team look like, Nick?
Nick Jemetta (13:45.665)
So for me, it sits at multiple levels. At the very top of an organisation, it requires senior leaders, I think, to make harder choices. I've worked in tech businesses, I've worked in product teams, and one of the biggest drivers of stress and burnout is the sheer number of must-dos, the sheer number of priorities. So one of the first things that organisations can be doing strategically is to be getting much clearer on the things we're not going to do.
Ben Pearce (13:56.342)
Okay.
Nick Jemetta (14:16.437)
which most importantly therefore distills down. These are the things we absolutely must do. Because when you have that focus, I think it's much easier for a line manager to actively manage and coach their team. So this is what we're talking about in terms of line managers having the support of their managers to really shape the strategy so that we're not trying to spread people too thin. Assuming that's in place and it's never going to be a perfect world, then I think it's really about
retraining and rewiring our perception of what a great manager looks like. If we rewind 20 years to when Helen and I were working together in recruitment, a lot of the managers at that time, you they were micromanagers, they were command and control. They couldn't possibly reveal any any vulnerability. They weren't interested in role modelling. was you turn up to work, you get paid and you do what I tell you.
Ben Pearce (15:00.522)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Jemetta (15:11.349)
Now that's changing, but I think we still have a significant number of managers that believe that is how they need to manage. And 82 % of managers are accidental. What does that mean from a tech point of view? It means that a lot of the managers being promoted are great within their particular discipline, whether that's in engineering or product or design or data, but they've never had any support in how to manage and manage managing people is not about having great technical skills. Managing people is actually having great human skills.
and emotional intelligence. So it's really about building the capacity for a manager to be very self-aware. So that to Helen's early point, they're looking after themselves and then a manager to have the skills to get the best from their people to drive the right business outcomes. So it doesn't mean managers should be therapists, but it probably does mean that a manager can have a conversation and be empathetic with their team if they're struggling, knowing that not only is it the right thing to do for the person,
But if they handle it right, that person will become productive. And when you have many productive, healthy, motivated people to your early question, what is a great team look like to me, they are the core ingredients of a great team.
Ben Pearce (16:22.486)
Okay.
So if I sort of play back what I think I've heard you're saying this great team is like, it's got some clear direction, some clarity on what we're doing and also what we're not doing because the world's super busy and we need some clarity on that. You've then got a self-aware leader that's well-trained that is able to empathize and understand the team that they're working with and help them prioritize and coach them to be really effective and bring that team together.
And if we get those sorts of things right, then that makes the team more productive, more effective and more successful as a team. Have I played that bad? Am I understanding that right?
Nick Jemetta (17:02.455)
I mean, it's all it's almost like you're a chat GPT on the other end, Ben. You've synthesized that and distilled it wonderfully.
Ben Pearce (17:05.718)
Yeah
Yeah, it is. I've just got a prompt here that just says, know, play this back like to a five-year-old because that is how my brain works. So that's normally how I speak like a five-year-old. Right, okay. So I think I understand that. And so I guess that's like the Holy Grail, right? Everybody wants to be in a team like that, but for a million reasons, that's not what people's teams are like. So how do we go from where we are today to...
Nick Jemetta (17:10.379)
Are you sure it is Ben?
Helen Joy (17:11.886)
You
Nick Jemetta (17:16.7)
Hahaha
Ben Pearce (17:40.014)
How do managers go from where they are today to being somebody that can lead a team like that? Have you got any tips?
Helen Joy (17:49.166)
I the first thing is always about being honest and it's being honest with your your line manager if you can be because not everyone can be because as you just said you know we're not all of us it's great if you're in an environment you've got that fantastic line manager that you can talk to and be honest with
Nick Jemetta (17:50.369)
How long have we got?
Ben Pearce (18:04.159)
Okay.
Ben Pearce (18:08.832)
Okay.
Helen Joy (18:18.338)
but you may not be, but there may be someone within your organisation that you can be honest with, where if you are getting to the point where, well before you're getting to the point of it's kind of overwhelming, but when things start to get difficult, find someone that you trust, find someone that you can talk to. One of the things that over the years of all the development I've done with managers across all sorts of industries and sectors,
the similarity in the challenges and the problems that managers are having. And when they have that conversation with someone who goes, yeah, I know exactly what mean. It's really bloody difficult, isn't it? And just that can make everything seem so much lighter. Just take some of that pressure off your shoulders and go, actually, it's not just me, it's okay.
Ben Pearce (19:11.286)
Yeah, yeah, it is. I think, you know, when I talk to whether you're first line managers or in new management roles or managers that have been CEOs, I was chatting to a CEO a while ago. He was saying he's just got a real challenge with one of his direct reports at the moment, actually, and was up, didn't get to sleep till five o'clock in the morning because they're thinking about it.
And this sort of stuff where it's about people is really quite emotionally draining. And so just to be able to be honest to people and say, God, this is what it's like. I'm not some robot. That's really important.
Helen Joy (19:52.058)
And if you can be honest with the person that you report into, the level of pressure that that takes off when the majority of people will take some of that burden for you and help you and support you and can then support you so that things don't get any worse, so that they can start to put things into place to help improve things. But fear gets in the way sometimes and we worry that if we admit to vulnerability, if we admit that we're not
perfect in this manager job, again, especially when we might be new into the role, that stops us being honest because of that fear. But actually, again, it's 85 % of things that we worry about never come to pass, chances are you have that conversation, actually the outcome will be what you want rather than, or what you'd hoped for rather than the other.
Ben Pearce (20:35.04)
Right, Yeah.
Ben Pearce (20:42.92)
And so in your experience, most managers are receptive. If a direct report comes to them and is saying, look, these are some challenges, are most receptive because we fear that they're gonna be like Vlad the Impaler when we talk to them about it. What's the kind of ratio of managers that are fine versus Vlad the Impaler?
Nick Jemetta (21:00.169)
Alright.
Helen Joy (21:06.542)
They're mostly fine. And I think you know, you know whether your manager's gonna skew you to the wall the minute you admit any defeat. And that's where you maybe find another person to be honest with in the organization. Well, this is the thing, isn't it? Because actually that bit of, if you turn to your manager and say, this is overwhelming, this is getting too much and I can't cope, and their response is, well, tough luck, you do have a choice. You know, you can choose.
Ben Pearce (21:10.02)
Right.
Ben Pearce (21:19.156)
Yeah, yeah, or another job, another company.
Ben Pearce (21:32.874)
Yeah. Yeah.
Helen Joy (21:36.93)
to stay there and try and make the best of things and try and get some support or you can start to look at alternatives and what your options are because, most managers generally because actually they would much rather know that there was a problem when it was solvable than when that problem became you being completely burnt out and off for three months because you just can't function anymore. Most human beings would want to.
Ben Pearce (22:01.066)
Yeah, yeah, and it's interesting. I was thinking about I guess sort of almost like the commoditization of culture in tech. So what I mean by that is most tech companies, the cultures are pretty much the same because it's the same people are moving around from company to company. They're going from Microsoft to Amazon to Facebook, off to Google, down to a partner, off to so and so. And actually it's that
Helen Joy (22:02.616)
So.
Ben Pearce (22:28.488)
your line manager and maybe your skip manager that's almost where the culture comes from because pretty much all the tech companies are the same. So yeah that that if the line manager is not the one just being able to skip to the next one I think yeah can really be a powerful thing.
Helen Joy (22:44.002)
Yeah. Because two people can work in the same organisation and have a completely different experience in that organisation. One can have a wonderful experience because they've got a fantastic manager. You can then go to a different function and somebody else hates it because they've got a different manager. And because that manager at each level controls the culture and the way that that team works.
Ben Pearce (23:06.922)
Yeah, okay. So first tip then is basically be honest, know, and create an environment where you can be honest when you're managing up. Next tip?
Nick Jemetta (23:20.599)
We're going to continue to build on the be honest theme. And I've actually got two tips here because one's just come to me as we were talking, which is to be honest, to have an honest conversation upwards. There's a step before that, which is being honest with yourself. So if you're struggling, there is a stage you have to go through of actually being aware of it and accepting it and willing to act on it. Because the other alternative is you don't accept it. You don't recognise it and you drown. And then eventually you're burning out yourself. So
Ben Pearce (23:35.017)
Okay?
Nick Jemetta (23:49.889)
This is why this self-awareness as part of what we're doing with the human leader is so important. I think also the honesty with yourself part is also important if you don't have a good relationship with your line manager. Because if you honestly know that you need to have a difficult conversation, you don't think you can have it with that person, what does that mean? Well, it means either you have to find a way to have it, which might mean role-playing it, it might mean getting some coaching to prepare you for it.
It might mean to you to your point, Ben, skipping a level. Or if you're going to go outside of your immediate organization, what other options do you have? Well, when I've had difficult experiences, I've actually spoken to ex managers who have still got a really good relationship with. That's one option. But if you're a new manager, or if you're somebody that maybe isn't as active as building your network, let's say, it can feel quite a lonely isolating experience and
Ben Pearce (24:35.648)
Yeah.
Nick Jemetta (24:47.195)
One of the things that surprised us when we were really thinking about the human leader was that more than 50 % of managers admit to feeling isolated. I you're already being squeezed from every direction to layer in loneliness and isolation. just a perfect storm. So that's why as part of the human leader, we've created this online community so that to the points you're making, middle managers can engage, interact, learn, network with other middle managers.
but not just in their organization, that's the key bit. Because if there's some cultural norm that you're not comfortable with or some sensitivity you're not comfortable with, all of a sudden, we want to create a world that allows middle managers to connect, yes, within tech, but our longer term ambition is, wouldn't it be great if a middle manager in tech could learn something from a middle manager working in bioscience? Or a middle manager in bioscience learning from someone who's working in F1, for example. So that is kind of an all-encompassing, yeah.
Ben Pearce (25:34.474)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Pearce (25:38.644)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's about that honesty then. So that being honest with yourself, that this is something you need to think about. And then honest up, we've kind of talked about. And then did you say there was gonna be a second tip? Cause you had two there. Right.
Nick Jemetta (25:53.047)
There was, we're drawing some sort of triangle here with the manager in the middle. So it's also about being able to be honest, I suppose, at your level with your peers, but also being honest with your team. And I think this is one of the biggest challenges for middle managers as it stands, but one of the biggest opportunities for anyone who's willing to consider the path towards being a human leader, because I still think in our society and I...
Helen Joy (25:53.899)
You
Nick Jemetta (26:20.535)
particularly for men, I still think this is a massive problem. We know that tech over indexes on men, any kind of vulnerability, we have this perception that you're going to be seen as weak. We have this perception that you admit some kind of vulnerability and that's your career to smoke. And I actually think in the right cultures and with a level of bravery, inner bravery, you know, when you use vulnerability properly, it can build trust.
and it can build psychological safety. And we know that those two components are absolutely fundamental to high performing teams. So when I first opened up about the struggles with my own wellbeing, and that was seven years ago, I did that now, I was a line manager at the time. And a little part of me did wonder whether or not I was throwing my career away. But once I spoke out, once I opened up,
The quality of the conversations with my direct reports almost overnight transformed. Why? Because they didn't just see me as a robot that was trying to dictate. They saw me as a human being that was having his own struggles, but was working through them so they could take some inspiration from that. But also they started to open up to me and the dialogue became much richer. And, you know, unfortunate that because I've done all the right training, I knew to draw the circle around myself. So knew I didn't have to try and fix the situation, but
I could listen, I could empathise, I could signpost. And over time, I built much more robust relationships with those individuals, not just as direct reports, but as human beings.
Ben Pearce (27:58.292)
Yeah. So how do you... So when I think about this idea of being vulnerable, and I'm 100 % on board, when you are happy to admit your foibles and your weaknesses and the challenges you have, then other people are, and then the conversation becomes so much better. But what about the leadership side? Because we're talking about human leadership. And so let me give you an example. Covid, right, a years ago.
Just imagine, and I'm gonna make no political comment on any of the leaders from anybody around the world during this time, but just imagine, just imagine that you've got a leader that gets up there and goes, do you know what, I'm really scared by this, I don't know what we're doing, we don't know what we're doing. But I hear what you're saying, but I'm a bit scared and I don't really know what we're doing. Versus somebody that goes, this is what we're gonna do, we are gonna wear masks, we're gonna...
Nick Jemetta (28:32.37)
Ha ha ha ha
Helen Joy (28:33.23)
Thank
Ben Pearce (28:57.558)
do this with the cult we're going to isolate we're going to do this somebody that gives direction and clarity isn't there a balance to be had between this vulnerability and this leadership and how do you balance that together in a leadership role?
Nick Jemetta (29:14.487)
I'll let Helen jump in on that one first.
Ben Pearce (29:16.054)
Well past the buck!
Helen Joy (29:16.686)
Absolutely. no, and it's absolutely right because there is...
Nick Jemetta (29:18.487)
She was doing a lot of nodding, so I thought, yeah, she's got something to say.
Helen Joy (29:29.838)
There's different places for different styles of leadership and it is very much dependent on the situation that you're in. And there will be times when people need direction and there will be times when people need to see the leader at the front heading in the direction, painting that picture of where you're going and getting everyone on board. It's not about being...
that vulnerable all the time, but it's about being able to recognise when is the right time to show that vulnerability. you know, we are living in a world and an environment and you said earlier, you know, the pace of technological change at the moment is ridiculous. And that makes those human...
frailties, vulnerabilities and what have you is so much more important and the human side of us is so much more important because we're competing constantly with technology and it's about having the skill and the self-awareness to recognise which me does this person need in this moment because it's about the person that you're with, it's about the situation that you're in and what do these this team need me to be.
to get them to this point and then we can revisit and we can look at, okay, maybe I'll get you through this major, major traumatic situation. And at the end of it, I might turn around and go, yeah, no, bit scary that, it? Yeah, because it's that bit. And then they go turn around and go, oh my God, you were as scared as we were, but you stepped up and you did that. Actually, I could possibly do that next time. And it's about empowering people, it's about recognising and having that self-awareness to go, this is the me you need, right?
whilst being aware of the impact of that on you and not trying to be that person for too long.
Nick Jemetta (31:26.295)
almost like modes. Oh, sorry, Ben, gone. I was about to jump in. I was just going to say, I think my natural incarnation, this is probably why Helen and I work so well together, is I'm always going to be slightly more in the we must be more vulnerable camp because I don't see any of us doing it. you know, absolutely, I'm pragmatic. It's that kind of the mode you're in, but also there's shades of vulnerability. Because for me, the easiest way to be vulnerable, but still be clear, be impactful, be inspirational, is to just
Ben Pearce (31:26.454)
we've had sort of... no no you carry on. Carry on mate. No, carry on.
Nick Jemetta (31:56.117)
narrate within a team environment that in our culture, we're happy to fail. That for me is an entry point to vulnerability while still displaying very strong leadership.
Ben Pearce (32:01.856)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Pearce (32:11.326)
Yeah, happy to fail, happy to fail fast, course correct, happy to learn so that hopefully we don't have the massive unsacked failures. Because we've done that course correcting, which means that we are able to be successful to drive those business outcomes. Yeah. So the tips we've had so far is about being honest up. We've had about being honest with ourselves, being honest and vulnerable down with our direct reports. Any other tips?
Nick Jemetta (32:15.019)
Happy to learn.
Helen Joy (32:16.482)
Yeah, absolutely.
Ben Pearce (32:40.746)
that you'd share at all.
Helen Joy (32:42.688)
I this one feeds on from the conversation we've just had actually, which is saying I don't know.
Ben Pearce (32:49.664)
Okay. Okay.
Helen Joy (32:50.958)
So when, a team leader, team manager, department lead, you know, if somebody, because it works on so many levels in terms of A, just taking the pressure off yourself to feel like you've got to know everything all the time. It actually is really, really empowering for your team. The first time I said I don't know,
to my team, to a member of my team, as Nick said earlier, and I suddenly had that moment of that vulnerability of, God, I'm gonna admit this, and they're gonna lose all respect for me, and it's gonna be awful. And they just looked at me went, all right, okay. I'll tell you what, I'll go and ask them over there, and off they went. And suddenly I was like, I don't have to solve this problem for you, you're actually gonna go and find out and solve it for yourself. So that person came back.
So not only did I take in the pressure of rather than going, well, I think it's this and giving them the wrong answer and looking like a complete idiot or taking the pressure to go and find the answer for myself. What that did was give them the opportunity to go away, learn, grow, develop, build their confidence whilst not adding extra pressure to me as a manager. And it was revelatory. is the, and I mean, you don't say it all the time. There would be that question like.
Ben Pearce (33:59.348)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Jemetta (34:07.936)
Hahaha
Helen Joy (34:09.192)
why are you actually doing this job again? Because you should know some of the answers. But there are, it's that bit, think, you know, again, 10 years ago, anyone in a management role would have just blagged their way through the answer. And then hence you get to these positions where it's like, well, don't ask him anything, because he doesn't know he's talking about. But that sense of, it's okay to not know everything, nobody's expecting you to know everything. And actually, by admitting that, you're showing you human, you're showing you...
that it's okay to not know, but you're also enabling and supporting people to go out and find answers for themselves and to grow and to develop and take them forward. And that as a manager is what you're all about. You should be there. Your job is to create the environment where your people can be at their very, best and do their best and to help them develop to the absolute utmost of their capacity. That should be what you're there to do.
Ben Pearce (34:49.354)
Yeah? Yeah.
Ben Pearce (35:00.865)
Yeah.
And just that very simple thing of saying, I don't know. And do know what, maybe even just using that as a way to get them to go and do that, as a way to self develop, know, even if you do know the answer. Just, I remember doing some coaching with a guy called Michael Bungay Stain that was really good. He used to call it the advice monster. You know, how managers will often just, you know, like, well, I know the answer. There you go. As opposed to saying, well, I don't know. Maybe I do, maybe I don't. But actually go and do something yourself. Go and do some research, find stuff out.
you'll be more energized, motivated and probably come back with a better result through coaching rather than that command and conquer approach.
Helen Joy (35:39.512)
Getting over your own ego, that's what it is sometimes.
Ben Pearce (35:41.78)
Yeah, yeah fascinating. Do you know what? I've just glanced at the clock and we are quickly heading towards the end of the episode. So, I guess as we start to summarise, so you guys have put together a programme called The Human Leader, I believe. So what sort of things do you do in this programme to help people sort of solve these challenges that we've been talking about?
Helen Joy (36:11.278)
Shall I do that then? Okay, so basically what we've done with the Human Leader Programme is is management development and mental health awareness, wellbeing embedded into each other. what we do rather than them being two separate things, what we've done is put a programme together that actually starts with managers looking
Ben Pearce (36:12.47)
I'm gonna go, I'm gonna do you, Helen. Yes, to you.
Nick Jemetta (36:12.865)
Drive for it.
Helen Joy (36:41.056)
internally looking at themselves, recognising in themselves their boundaries, what their strengths are, how they use those and then working through once they've got that kind of, we talked earlier on about self-awareness and looking at themselves as a human and then looking out at their team and focusing on building the skills that mean they build a mentally healthy and well-developed and well-skilled team. So they're armed with all of that and it's all blended into each other. It's not his
management development program, here's some mental health training, it's seamlessly blended into the two and then the final kind of three sort of levels to it and the final level is very much around okay let's take all of this and let's help you take your business to the next level because you've now created that team that's performing because not only are you in a real power position of strength but also your team are which means that that gives you all the commercial leverage to build and grow your business.
Ben Pearce (37:14.282)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Pearce (37:41.834)
Really interesting. Thank you for that, Helen. Nick, I'm gonna come to you then as we start to wrap up the episode. Key takeaways, we've been through a lot. What would be the key takeaways that you'd share?
Nick Jemetta (37:59.595)
Well being at work isn't working right now. I think that that is very clear that particularly in the tech industry, I think we need to be thinking a bit more disruptively. That's the definition of what we're trying to do in tech. I think we need to apply that mindset to our people and to our leaders. Helen's already talked about the program with the human leader. And if I just try and extract some of the topics within that program that I think are key takeaways.
I think any, any line managers listening, if you want to try and sort of lean into what we believe it, it means to be a human leader. Instead of thinking about goal setting, instead of thinking about setting tasks and being directive, think more about how can I build my own mental fitness? How can I build the mental fitness of my team? How can I actually create psychological safety? Do my team trust me and do I trust my team?
there a slight shift perhaps and a nuance on on how we've traditionally thought about what it means to be a to be a great manager. What I believe having worked in tech for a long time is that managers should be able to take a more experimental mindset. And some of the tips that we talked to earlier, I imagine for some of your listeners might feel quite arresting and quite challenging. Experiment with it. It might not work for you immediately. It might not work in every conversation, but experiment with it. See how you get on.
pivot, try something else. The final line, I suppose, in my summary, which for me kind of sums up where we are is that I'm passionate about us moving past just ticking boxes to actually building better, longer lasting behaviours.
Ben Pearce (39:43.35)
Yeah, really, really interesting Nick. Thank you for that. think, and for me, for my key takeaways, from the conversation we've had, I really like that idea of, well, let's just think about being honest. Honest with ourselves, honest up, honest down, and then just that balance of vulnerability going, actually, if I'm happy to be vulnerable,
then people might reciprocate. Therefore, the level of conversation we're gonna have is gonna completely change to a far deeper level, which means that we're more engaged with each other, we're more human, we're more connected, and that breeds a stronger foundation from which success comes, and I've observed that, I've definitely observed that. So I think that's fascinating.
So thank you for leading us on that conversation. Now, just before we finally wrap up, if people want to get hold of you, where can people, if they've really enjoyed this conversation, where can people find out more about you?
Nick Jemetta (40:31.436)
Ha ha ha.
Nick Jemetta (40:41.451)
So you can learn more about the program or you can sign up to the community wait list and the community is opening in 2025. And you can visit us at thehumanleader.co.uk and Helen and are also both very active on LinkedIn.
Ben Pearce (40:55.968)
Okay, and I'll pop those in the show notes so that people can see those links at thehumanleader.co.uk and on LinkedIn. Well, the final thing for me to say is thank you so much. It has been a really inspiring, really insightful, great conversation. So thank you very much, Nick, and thank you very much, Helen.
Helen Joy (41:15.086)
Thank you. Thanks for having us.
Nick Jemetta (41:15.191)
Thanks for having us, Ben.
